Curse

SnipiousMax · May 28, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)

Dras · May 28, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Sounds like flatbow vs. recurve is pretty much opinion

Btw, why is splinter>conjure? i can just toss splinter on my hero...

Fay Vert · May 28, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dras

Sounds like flatbow vs. recurve is pretty much opinion

Not for Barrage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dras

Btw, why is splinter>conjure? i can just toss splinter on my hero...

Because...

Okay, it got nerfed since then, but its still by far the biggest damage you can do on a bow shot to a group. Though Heroes don't use splinter too well.

la_cabra_de_vida · May 28, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Flatbow archs are huge compared to recurves, that extra barrage you can get it is nothing compared to how many more arrows will miss their targets.

XDeadboltX · May 28, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)

Ok thanks for clearing that up. Havent had a chance to use my deldrimor flatbow yet, its still un modded. Not really sure when im going to actually use barrage though.

I suppose its not that much of a difference then, depends whether or not youve got fw in your team build, or whether youre just solo splinter barraging in which you probably dont have fw

Hugh Manatee · May 29, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

Flatbow archs are huge compared to recurves, that extra barrage you can get it is nothing compared to how many more arrows will miss their targets.

[Favorable Winds]

makes a recurve's flight time, with a longbows range and a short bow's reload=ultimate ranger weapon

Grammar · May 29, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Actually this is a myth, and it has been proven wrong any number of times. The barrage/flatbow sync problem has absolutely no impact on the final results.

See: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=barrage+test

Using an IAS doesn't change things either, Flatbows/Shortbows still rain supreme:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10164713

As to the question of Accuracy, there is honestly very little impact using a recurve over a flatbow as far as Barrage is concerned.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

The myth you speak of is the idea that the interrupted animation that results from a flatbow being slightly faster than Barrage somehow slows down Barrage (the sort of "double pump" effect that you see before the barrage animation begins). This has proven to be untrue. Barrage has a maximum fire rate, and that rate is unaffected by an animation interruptions/abnormalities.

However, this does not change the fact that the maximum fire rate of Barrage is slightly slower than the maximum fire rate of a flatbow on auto fire, which is what I meant when I said the two don't quite sync up.
Because of this, it is erroneous to say that a flatbow can fire Barrage at a rate of 0.4 seconds per Barrage faster than a recurve bow (like it can on auto fire), because Barrage isn't quite fast enough to take full advantage of the flatbow's 0.4 second speed advantage over the recurve bow.
In reality, like I said, the flatbow's speed advantage is much closer to 0.2 seconds faster per Barrage if you time it right, or 0.1 second or less if you don't.

The point that I'm trying to make is this: Yes, a flatbow will be able to fire slightly more Barrages per minute than a recurve bow, but that speed advantage isn't as big as you would think just by looking at the speed of the bows (2.0 vs. 2.4). A flatbow is NOT 0.4 seconds faster than a recurve bow at when it comes to spamming Barrage.

Because the speed difference isn't all that significant, I think the FAR more important issue here is the debate between better range (flatbow) vs. better interrupting ability (recurve).
And for me, personally, this isn't much of a debate.

Recurve ftw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)

Actually, it's for every 8 Barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 9 with a flatbow (assuming you time it right).

Once again, the speed advantage with Barrage is NOT the full 0.4 seconds per shot like it is on auto fire.

Stranger The Ranger · May 29, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Barrage is baed

/topic

fenix · May 29, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Yeah, Stranger the Ranger is right, Barrage is bad.

But really, fuzzy maths doesn't make Flat Bow better than Recurve, because for EVERYTHING other than Barrage under Favourable, Recurve is better.

Bad elite, bad bow.

MasterSasori · May 29, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

Recurve + FW > Flatbow + FW.

Is the range thing all that important to you guys? lol. more accuracy ftw.

Monsters move but they don't kite. However, you will be firing so fast with a flatbow, they'll all be dead before they knew what hit them.

Hugh Manatee · May 29, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

And yes, the range is important, if you're in recurve range you're in caster range, and are very close to aggro range. That buffer between you and you minion/pet wall is important, if you draw something to yourself in the backline then that puts your soft targets at risk(MMs, healers ect).

As said, between [favorable winds] and the fact that pve enemies don't kite a flatbow is a pve superweapon.

Also Barrage/Volley are excellent skills if you're going to be fighting clustered enemies. They are deadly when combined with splinter weapon and/or conjures. I've also found they can be used to charge Save Yourself for a sort of god mode ranger(either barrage+volley, FGJ+Barrage OR volley, or my favorite with a party of paragons and warriors backed by rit weapons, Infuriating heat+Volley. When you only have 1 guy to attack, triple shot and savage will charge SY).

la_cabra_de_vida · May 29, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Yeah, Stranger the Ranger is right, Barrage is bad.

But really, fuzzy maths doesn't make Flat Bow better than Recurve, because for EVERYTHING other than Barrage under Favourable, Recurve is better.

Bad elite, bad bow.

Im not even going to try to argue with your because your logic is so bad. Point is, barrage is the best for bow rangers in pve since its the highest dps + rediculous sy fuel.

Adja1005 · May 29, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

Im not even going to try to argue with your because your logic is so bad. Point is, barrage is the best for bow rangers in pve since its the highest dps + rediculous sy fuel.

[Glass Arrows][Broad Head Arrow][Burning Arrow] all > than [Barrage] no matter how you try to twist it.

Barrage on its own isn't all that great as it produces mediocre damage and relies to heavily on mobs being packed together to really produce good AoE damage. It also only becomes super usefull when combined with [splinter weapon] to create a large AoE spike to mobs who are grouped close together.

Personally if running a bow build i never take Barrage, theres just so many better skills out there for a bow ranger.

Fay Vert · May 29, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Fortunately we get to bring up to 8 skills, not 1, so S/B still rocks.

SnipiousMax · May 30, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

@ Grammar

I did misunderstand, I apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Because the speed difference isn't all that significant, I think the FAR more important issue here is the debate between better range (flatbow) vs. better interrupting ability (recurve).

Were accuracy truely a concern (ie...running interrupts), then it'd still be possible to use favorable winds and get the best of both. :P But honestly the only reason to run barrage is damage output, and you'd want to maximize that function at a slight cost to others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Actually, it's for every 8 Barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 9 with a flatbow (assuming you time it right).

Once again, the speed advantage with Barrage is NOT the full 0.4 seconds per shot like it is on auto fire.

It still turns out that you are using 1-2 extra barrages per mob. If the fight ran long, you'd net even more. Depending on what other skills you are using (ie...splinter) and the makeup of the mob, that could result in a significant amount of damage you would've missed out on otherwise.

It'd only be pointless to use a flatbow, if you killed stuff so quickly, you never made it to the extra barrage....which I'm willing to admit is entirely in the realm of possiblity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Various

Barrage=Teh BAED!

If your group needed an interrupter, and you brought barrage, then yes it is probably a poor choice of skill. But in the utility Knife that is a ranger, Barrage is just another tool that can be effective in certain situations/groups. There is no point in hating a skill because it's popular. :P

Grammar · May 31, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Barrage is indeed a good elite if you are looking for a high damage Splinter Weapon build. Because of the spammability of Barrage and the ridiculousness of Splinter Weapon in PvE, Splinter+Barrage is pretty much king of the hill when it comes to Ranger damage.

That said, there are two significant drawbacks to Barrage:
1. It costs you your elite slot
2. You focus much less on interrupts, because Barrage needs to be spammed on EVERY arrow to take full advantage of it's high damage potential.

This is why [broad head arrow]+[volley]+[splinter weapon] is so popular. It doesn't do as much damage as [barrage]+[splinter weapon], but it still does high damage while avoiding the two drawbacks that hurt Barrage. Freeing up the elite slot is especially a big deal, because BHA is a very powerful tool to have available to you.
Personally, I run BHA+Volley+Splinter on my PVE Ranger, because I like dazed and interrupts. But I certainly have no problem with people who choose the all-out damage route of Barrage+Splinter, because damage is ultimately the most important thing in PvE.

So no, Barrage is not bad. It's merely an acquired taste.

Quaker · Jun 01, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I would say that, for barrage you should be using [favorable winds] if you are using a Flatbow.

If you're not using FW, (and even if you are) you should be using a Shortbow (gasp!) - yes, that's right, a Shortbow. With a shortbow, you get the fastest fire rate, plus the ability to interrupt. Plus, you are already in range when you throw in [Pain Inverter] or whatever.

(Unless, of course, you are in a group with a "tank" where you don't want to break agro. Then use a Flatbow.)

Btw, I am attempting to limit my response to the OP's question. Whether or not Barrage is the "best" elite, or the best build, is another discussion.

Fangclaw · Jun 08, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Wether you want to use a Flatbow or a Recurve bow is a matter of taste. I actually use both of them for Barraging, its just a matter of circumstances...